Among the scads of podcasts addressing financial issues, one recently tackled “why women must start investing — and how to get past the fear.” It discussed the “voices in [women’s] heads whispering, ‘You don’t know enough.’”
That was an episode of “Everyone’s Talkin’ Money,” hosted by Shannah Game, a show that The New York Times named a top-four money podcast.
Game, a CFP, focuses on people’s emotional relationship with money.
“From working with clients, I learned that financial planning is personal,” Game argues in an interview with ThinkAdvisor. “It [should be] done almost from a therapeutic perspective.”
Game gave up her advisory practice to concentrate on the podcast, speaking engagements and writing books. Her new tome is “Unraveling Your Relationship with Money: Ditch Your Money Trauma So You Can Live an Abundant Life.”
In the interview with Game, who earned a Trauma of Money certification at the Institute on Holistic Wealth, she says that couples who argue about money should discuss their finances “from a place of curiosity, not judgment.” She also reveals an exercise she created to “free yourself from money trauma.”
Here are highlights of our conversation:
THINKADVISOR: “Stop treating money like math,” you write. Please elaborate.
SHANNAH GAME: The math part of money is a very small piece. Yes, math is important. But it’s not just about math. Math doesn’t equal success.
I believe that the emotional relationship side of money — what we’ve learned, our habits, our stories — are a bigger component of, “This is where I want to be financially.”
We can plug in numerous numbers. But the question is: What moves that dial? How does the emotional side of money play into the equation we spin out around money?
What makes your podcast different from others?
There’s always a backstory about someone and their money. My show gives a different perspective than just talking about typical money tips.
Some people come to me with surface-level questions, but I know there’s a lot going on underneath that we can get to.
There’s this belief that there’s a perfect, right way to do things around money. I’m a money expert, but I’ve made a ton of money mistakes myself.
You’re a CFP and taught financial literacy at California State University, Northridge for a decade. Then you gave up your advisory practice to focus on the podcast and writing books. How did being an advisor help you to score a hit financial podcast?
From working with clients, I learned that financial planning is personal. It [should be] done almost from a therapeutic perspective. I started to infuse that in my work with clients, my teaching and in my own life.
Any other financial services background that you brought to the table?
My father is a [veteran] advisor. I worked with him for about 18 years and learned how to help people figure out what’s blocking them and moving them to transformation.
What are some problems that listeners frequently ask you about?
People are really stuck in a place of shame around money, feeling that the decisions they have or haven’t made are the worst ever. They don’t know how to get where they want to go.
I know the reasons they tend to stay stuck.
What’s an example of being stuck?
Someone wants to retire early and can’t figure out how to do it. Or they want to buy a house. They make good money but can’t figure out why they’re unable to do it.
What other topics come up often?
A lot of questions about debt, which brings us to a bigger conversation about overspending and triggers looking at the mental health side of money.
Do many couples ask you about their money conflicts?
Oh, yes. There’s a lot of avoidance: Couples feel that if they keep their money separate, they’ll never have arguments about it.
There’s a lot of vulnerability around money in relationships, which people are just scared to death to explore.
Usually when a couple has a collective bad relationship with money, it bleeds over into other areas — intimacy, careers, all sorts of things.
What do you suggest that such couples do?
It’s really important for couples to have money discussions from a place of curiosity, not judgment. They need to try to figure out what their partner’s strengths are and also how they can help support them in areas where they’re not so strong.
Do your listener couples ever mention financial infidelity?
It comes up a lot. People don’t want to admit that it might be happening. I think financial infidelity happens way more than is talked about, for sure.
What do you recommend to a wife if she discovers that her husband has a secret bank account?
A good way to open a discussion that doesn’t immediately raise defenses is: “I’ve found this [whatever]. And I feel [this way]. Can you help me understand it”?
So, she should create a safe environment to have a conversation from the perspective of: “I found this account, and I feel a lot of anxiety around it. Let’s have a conversation about it.”
That’s coming at it from a place of “I want to understand this” vs. negativity and saying, “You’re hiding something from me,” which puts people on the defensive.
But suppose the husband pushes back?
Then it might be time to bring in a financial therapist, somebody that can help navigate the conversation.
Broadly, does it help if people are more intentional about their money?
Most avoid looking at where they spend their money from the perspective of “Is this where I want my money to go?” versus “I can be intentional with every dollar that comes out of my bank account.”
That’s having a grasp of where your money is going and putting yourself more in control of it and where you want it to go.
What’s a tool that can “free [you] from money trauma” as you put it in your book?
I’m a big fan of journaling. One exercise is writing down on paper all the things you wish you would have done with your money and the mistakes you’ve made.
About 24 hours later shred that paper, burn it — [destroy] it. A lot of studies say [pulling] those thoughts out of your head and onto paper is a way to get rid of them.
Another tool is having awareness of what was talked about around money when you were a child and how those messages automatically [show up in your behavior].
That sort of awareness is a big key.
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